How to Build a Successful Recruiting Firm Through a People-First, Team-Based Approach, with Chris Allaire of Averity | Restaurants & Franchises Series

Anthony (host): 12:05

All right, welcome to another edition of the Inspired Stories podcast, where leaders share their experiences so we can learn from their successes, how they’ve overcome adversity and explore current challenges they’re facing. My name is Anthony Cotisbodi and today’s guest is Chris Allaire,  founder and CEO of Averity, an award winning staffing and recruiting firm that specializes in tech.

Anthony (host): 12:32

They take a team based approach that is unique to the industry and we’re going to hear more about that. He loves a good side hustle, as he can be found frequently coaching CEOs and entrepreneurs. And he’s a bit of a renaissance man with interests in cooking and golfing. He’s a pilot, a guitar player, and a proud husband and father. And we’re going to learn about the two core philosophies that he always lives by. But before we get into the good stuff, today’s episode is brought to you by my company add back benefits agency, where we offer very specific and unique employee benefits that are both great for your team and fiscally optimized for your bottom line. One recent client was able to save over $900 per employee per year by implementing one of our proprietary programs. Another client is going to save over one $200 per employee per year by implementing a patented construct that we offer. Results vary for each company, and some organizations may not be eligible. To find out if your company qualifies, contact us today@adbackbenefitsagency.com. Now back to our guest today, the CEO and founder of Averity. Chris, I appreciate you taking the time to share your story today.

Chris (guest): 13:39

Hey, thanks so much for having me. It’s my pleasure.

Anthony (host): 13:41

So, Chris, let’s start out. Tell us in your own words, what does averity do and how did you get the idea to start it?

Chris (guest): 13:50

So averity is a technology staffing and recruiting firm. We are now a national company. We originally started ten years ago now in New York City. We had an office in midtown Manhattan on 36th and fifth. And as many of us have gone through back in 2020, the great pandemic kind of forced us, but really taught us a little bit more about the remote culture. So now we are dispersed as well as a lot of our clients are. So we have turned into kind of focus on the New York City scene into a little bit more of a national scene. I personally have been in technology recruiting for, I will say it out loud, over 25 years on a national level. I’ve built and run companies and offices in Boston, San Francisco, New York, Los Angeles, North Carolina. I’m sure there’s other places in the middle of there somewhere that I’ve missed. That’s a little bit about the, I’ve been doing this for a long time now, so there’s not a lot of things in the tech scene that I haven’t seen for in over 25 years, including the.com bubble burst, the financial collapse in New York, a pandemic, and now. Where we are today,

Anthony (host): 15:10

you’ve really ridden a lot of waves up and down. What was the inspiration for starting a barridy?

Chris (guest): 15:17

So being in recruiting for as long as I have, what I found is there really needed to be a change in the industry. In my opinion, a lot of recruiting, especially in New York City, gets a pretty bad name. A lot of candidates and clients really felt like they weren’t being heard. They were treated as, like a used piece of meat or being pushed into this square peg, into a round hole. And my mindset has always been pretty simple, which is, if you’re going to be in a service first business, you should think about service first. And there’s a lot of companies I worked for that really, they talked about those types of things, but they just weren’t exercising it. And after a while, I just decided that I didn’t really want to be associated with those places, and I really wanted to build my own brand name by pioneering a change in the industry. So what I decided to do was say, listen, we’re going to build a service first business that really thinks of the candidates and thinks of the clients first. Before anything else, I want to build a team based model. And I’ve worked in other organizations where they talk about they work together as a team, but realistically, there’s a lot of people that say they’re on a team, but they’re really just against each other. So I really wanted to build a model where there is no candidate ownership, there’s no client ownership, where together everyone achieves more that teams win championships, not MVPs. And that’s really what I wanted to do. So I just decided to say, like, you know what? The only way I’m going to make the correction out there in the industry is to go ahead and do it myself. So that was what I pioneered ten years ago. Here we are.

Anthony (host): 16:57

And so what does that look like in practice to implement this team based approach? Does it mean changing sort of the compensation structures for your team?

Chris (guest): 17:08

Yeah, it does. So what we do is our teams are highly specialized in niche technologies, so we have different practices that handle software engineering, DevOps, security, data science, data analytics, different areas of that nature. And so within their vertical, what we’re trying to do is make sure that we can deliver for clients and candidates as quickly as possible with a team of people that are very knowledgeable in the best in their area. Now, by doing that, if you’re looking for a job, you don’t want to talk to one person, you don’t want to just talk to me. So the strength that we offer is, if you’re talking to me, I have a team of four people that work with me that all do the exact same thing I do. And so you’re going to be represented by a team of anywhere from four to five people that have your best interests at heart. They’re going to find you the job that you’re looking for and on the client side is what happens is same thing if you’re looking for a senior level security engineer or data scientist, you have a team of four or five people that work for averity that are actually constantly filling the pipeline of candidates who may or may not be looking, who are going to be qualified, interested and available for your role. And so what I’ve been able to do is structure a way where there’s an individual who’s kind of running more or less running point with the client, but at any given moment, they’re going to be getting candidates from anybody else that’s doing recruiting or sales in that team. And also if that person is out or they may hear from somebody else on our staff saying, hey, listen, I know you’re working with Danny on this job, or you’re working with John on this job, however, we found a candidate we wanted to get him over to you as quickly as possible to make sure that you’re abreast of what’s going on out there in the marketplace. And what we’ve been able to do is pull together all funds and commissions earned and then divvy them up accordingly on the team kind of equally. And so that way, really, what happens is, whether it’s monthly or quarterly, no matter what happens out there, you’re always winning. So if you found a candidate and somebody else theoretically placed that candidate, you’re still on the winning end of it. So you never feel like there’s a competitive disadvantage for you. You’re never in this feeling where you need to hoard leads or hoard jobs, or you’re scared of telling somebody on your team that, like, oh, I’ve got a phenomenal candidate, but I don’t want to tell anybody because they might place them, and then I lose out. I’ve worked in those environments, and it’s absolutely terrible. It’s brutal. So the idea was saying, like, you know what? We don’t want to do that. We want everybody focused on the betterment of together. We all achieve more together, and then that’s how championships are won.

Anthony (host): 19:54

I like that. It reminds me of a conversation I had recently with a shed manufacturer. So a completely different industry. They’re building sheds that go in people’s backyards. And they started out with a compensation model where everybody was compensated and bonused based on what their individual output was. And it was a disaster. It didn’t work. Once they switched to very similar to the model that you’re describing, where the team gets bonus based on how much the team is producing, then everybody’s looking out for each other. Hey, there’s a new guy that he doesn’t know how to do this thing, and it’s slowing us up. He’s creating a bottleneck here. Rather than go around badmouthing him, let me go over here and show him and teach him. And so it creates, on its own, it sort of creates this atmosphere of team first, which is what you’re describing.

Chris (guest): 20:44

Exactly. And the other thing with the team first approach is, what I found is, I mean, I’ve worked in environments where a lot of sales environments, typically what you have is you have, like, internal contests. It’d be like the east coast versus the west coast or Team Alpha versus Team Bravo, and all this kind of don’t. I can’t stand that, and I don’t like that. Yes, it will drive your sales numbers up, but also, what happens is when you are in a contest with somebody, you want to win, but also you want that person to lose. And I know no one wants to admit that out loud, but if you’re in a race and you’re getting tight to the finish line and that person trips and you win, you’re happy you won. You might be upset that that person tripped, but at the end of the day, you’re happier that you won. I didn’t want to create an environment like that. So there are no internal contests, there are no internal competitions. There’s never anything that’s ever been like that in the ten years of my tenure in this organization. And I got to tell you, the teams love it and they thrive on it.

Anthony (host): 21:49

Does that help with your own staff retention, Chris?

Chris (guest): 21:52

I think it does. So even during the tough times that we’re in right now, which is some of the worst technology recruiting economic times I’ve seen since the.com. Since the bubble burst, my team has been with me for the average ten years, about six years. So I’ve got people that have been working for three years, seven years, six years, seven years, nine years, and they’re not going anywhere. And they’ve definitely had the opportunity. They get recruited all the time out of my company, and they won’t go anywhere. And the big reason why is because of our approach and because of our teamwork mentality and our methodologies, you can see that people really thrive and they genuinely like it. Most of these guys, they become really good friends with each other. It’s a lot more fun when you’re in it to win it together.

Anthony (host): 22:49

You touched on this. Let’s dive in a little bit deeper. Let’s talk about what the current state of affairs kind of looks like from an overall economy perspective, how that’s affecting your tech sector and what you guys are doing in the recruiting space.

Chris (guest): 23:04

So the last year. So we’re looking at right now, and knowing this recording, it’s, call it mid to late March, 2024. Right. And I’m sure, as everyone is familiar, kind of what’s been going on since 2023 or early 2023, this rounds of layoffs start to happen. Interest rates go up. Money becomes pretty expensive. Now you’ve got these technical people working on your balance sheet on whatever, I don’t care, let alone the fang companies. But like all these other organizations and some of these technical people are pretty expensive. So then you’re trying to figure out, like, wow, now the interest rates are no longer 2%. We’re at 10%. So we’ve got to write the balance sheet. So all these layoffs start coming in, and now you’ve got this influx of really talented, incredible people that are out there in the market. Now you’ve got boom. Influx of really talented engineers that got laid off for really no apparent reason other than for a company to make their balance sheet look good. Right, square that up and then mix that up with all these companies right now. None of them close down. They’re not doing poorly. They’re just not spending any money. We’re not spending any money because they want to keep their balance sheet nice and tight. So because of that, they’re not hiring anybody. But also the problem with that is they’re not launching a lot of new products, they’re accruing a boatload of technical debt, and they’re not doing well. However, their hands are tied because they can’t hire anybody because of budgetary restrictions. So what’s been going on over the last calendar year is this crazy influx of not a lot of hiring, not a lot of jobs, and a boatload of extremely talented people out there looking for work. And it’s pretty awful, actually. Right now, I’m talking to on both ends. Whether you’re a candidate or a client, for that matter, if you advertise a job right now, on the average open market, in a 48 hours period of time, you will have received over 750 applicants. 750 applicants in a 48 hours period of time. I know, because we’ve done it. And the problem with that is now you’re staring down the barrel of about, not to be weird, but about 5% to 7% of those applicants are actually in the realm of qualified or legitimate for the job. And a lot of this is because of what’s. And I’ll trash on it just a little bit, is some of these AI tools for job seekers are absolutely preposterous. They’re ridiculous. So what these tools will do is they will write your resume specific to job descriptions and then blast it out, unbeknownst to you, to, like, 200 ads on the open market. They don’t tell you where it’s going. You don’t approve them. You don’t even see the job descriptions. It just says, based on a couple of keywords you have, I’m going to rewrite your resume for you and then blast this thing out. So now you have companies getting resumes that have been rewritten by an AI bot that you don’t even know if it’s true or not. You have candidates that are. Their resumes are getting blasted to jobs they don’t even know. So now I’ve had clients that are really starting to understand this and they’re going like, Chris, we don’t even know why we should bother running an ad. We’re getting bombarded ad response. We can’t go through it. Even the people that are in here, we don’t know if they’re real or not. There’s people that I know that have responded to ad that they haven’t heard anything in three months. Because the clients bombarded with bombarded ad response and they get buried in these things. They can’t be hidden. And these are tremendous applicants that are just getting buried in the white noise and in the shuffle. So now they’re turning around going, why bother even responding to an ad? So this is all happening right now.

Anthony (host): 27:06

This is on top of the poor economic conditions that are causing companies to pull back and the ones that are advertising for jobs, the entire infrastructure is just getting flooded with garbage.

Chris (guest): 27:19

Yes.

Anthony (host): 27:21

What’s the solution? How does it

Chris (guest): 27:23

get. I have my handful of solutions, but honestly, I think one of the big, there are solutions to seekers, end job people. If you’re hiring out there, we are in a day and age where I know the technology can do a lot for you, but we’re so reliant on it. People need to understand that your network is the most important asset you have and keep it close to your chest. Right. The people that I know that have gotten the jobs they want are candidates that I’ve known for ten or twelve years, and I’ve placed them four or five times in their career. And they’re telling me, like, Chris, I’ve applied for jobs. I’m not hearing anything. I’m like, listen, I’m not getting approval to work at any of these jobs. Have you started reaching out to your network? I’ve had good friends of mine or candidates call me and say, hey, I finally got a job. I’m like, man, that’s awesome. Good to hear. How did you get it? And they said, jobs that I applied for two or three months ago. I started reaching out to the people that I know that worked at these organizations. The lead engineer is a good friend of mine, started talking to him. He got my name in front of the HR person. Two days later, I had an interview. Two weeks later, I got an offer. So this candidate got the offer, got the job. Their resume was sitting in the internal recruiter’s inbox for three months without a response. That’s happened numerous times to people I know.

Anthony (host): 28:47

Everything old is new again. It’s old fashioned networking.

Chris (guest): 28:50

It’s old fashioned networking.

Anthony (host): 28:52

Reaching out to your friends.

Chris (guest): 28:53

Yes. Reach out to your friends. Reach out to who you know. Talk to them about what’s going on. Talk to them about what you’re doing. Talk to them what you’re looking for. The responses that I’m getting and the people I’m having the best conversations with currently, right now are the people I’ve known for years. And it’s really nice because actually they are coming back to me saying, it’s refreshing to talk to somebody that just knows me, and maybe you can actually help me out here. And I’m saying the same things, Mike, you know what? I’m getting hit up by AI bots all day long that I don’t know what’s real anymore. And it’s nice to have a message, a LinkedIn message, which is free, that’s a free service to instant message somebody. And that’s the way most of the communication has been starting. And then we turn it back to phone calls and then the way we communicate these days. But just networking 101, and that’s the way that we got to get back to doing things.

Anthony (host): 29:53

So, Chris, your client is the firm that’s looking to hire. Is your client also the person who’s looking to get

Chris (guest): 30:01

the. I guess by definition, we are kind of the intermediary between those two things happening. We’re going to have clients that have very specific needs that are pretty hard to fill, hard to recognize. A process is tough to run. And then what we do is we’re talking on the candidates end marketing those positions to them, getting them interested, making sure they’re qualified, making sure they’re available, making sure they’re in the salary range. They know where the job is, if it’s hybrid, if it’s remote, if it’s on site, all the ins and outs that are associated with actually getting qualified and interested for that job itself on the side end of it. Also, we have a lot of candidates that they’re like, they don’t put themselves on the open market. These are people that have been around for 10, 15, 20 years that have got phenomenal backgrounds, but they’re like, I’m not going to put my hand up on LinkedIn or put my resume out there in one of these job boards. And so what they do is they call us and they say, hey, you guys are the experts in the field. Who do you know that can use my skill set? And so what we’ll do is we’ll do a skill marketing or we’ll actually take that person to market and say, hey, I know this gentleman named Anthony. This is, this person’s background, has done this, this and this. Never going to find this person on the open market, right? Hey, would you be interested in someone like this? And then we have a lot of people that get back to us like, wow, where did you find this person? What a great asset. And then there’s a lot of key skills that can happen there. You’re talking about people who have security clearances that you can’t find in the open market, people that are heavily vested into cybersecurity and especially appsec these days. They don’t have public profiles out there. So if you’re looking on the open market for these people, you’re not going to find them. And a lot of these candidates aren’t willing to put themselves in the open market, so they rely on us to market their backgrounds also, because we know what they really do, what they want to do, where they want to work, how much money they’re making, how much money they’re looking for, the types of environments they want to be in. So we have all this information that we can accurately vetted. Market them out there and then the mirror image on the client side. So that’s really what we’re doing on a day to day basis.

Anthony (host): 32:04

So how would you describe your ideal client? What do they look like?

Chris (guest): 32:11

Honestly, I happen to be a fan of larger organizations that have multiple departments within technology areas that know, I’m not going to say know how to hire people, but they understand the reality of hiring people. They understand that not everybody’s going to be perfect. They understand that when hiring people, there’s risk associated with that, where you may hire someone who looks phenomenal on paper and they pass all the tests and they do all the types of things, and then six months on the job, all of a sudden something falters and they’re just not doing that well. But they’ve been through these cycles before, so they’re familiar with it. So I like companies that are a little bit more tenured. I like companies that are product, that have a product that’s out there on the open facing market. Because I think personally, I think you give a candidate, most candidates are really interested in having what they’re built or what they’re doing out there in the open space. So it’s really kind of cool when you built something, you can say, see that? I built that versus like, I built all these internal running systems that you’re never going to see, you’re never going to hear. And there’s a place for everybody, and there’s a lot of different jobs out there for a lot of people. I tend to gravitate a little bit more towards those types of things. I really genuinely enjoy being involved with the business, with what companies are doing, what they’re building, how they’re building it, who’s using it, what their goals are for it, their go to market strategy. So I really love getting involved with that type of stuff. I really feel more embedded at it. And also it’s really cool when a product hits the market and I can say, I staffed all the core engineering group that built that product. So I take a lot of pride in those types of things.

Anthony (host): 34:02

Those are fun dinner conversations to

Chris (guest): 34:04

have. Yeah, it’s kind of neat. Sometimes he’s like, no, my two daughters are ten and seven, and then I don’t think they’re ever going to do what I do. But it is kind of neat when my daughter talks to me about my clients and I say, well, see that app you’re using right now? Or see that when everything’s a streaming service, right on Roku now. I’m like, see that streaming service? I’m like, I placed all the people that built that streaming service. And she’s like, oh, dad, that’s so

Anthony (host): 34:35

cool.

Chris (guest): 34:36

Can I watch TV? It’s like,

Anthony (host): 34:37

yeah.

Chris (guest): 34:38

So it is kind of neat when you kind of have, I don’t have a stake in the game.

Anthony (host): 34:45

You got a little connection to

Chris (guest): 34:47

it, you played a part. It creates a lot of joy for me. And

Anthony (host): 34:51

so your typical client is a technology company, not a company that has a technology department to support them

Chris (guest): 34:58

internally, both, actually. So, I mean, over my career, I’ve gravitated a lot towards heavy media entertainment, a good deal of finance and insurance, but a lot more in the seemed just to be gravitated towards media entertainment, digital kind of spaces. A lot of the work, especially in New York, that was a lot of my core client base for twelve or 15 years. I just kind of have a lot more affiliation with those organizations. And so I still kind of gravitate towards those. But obviously, when you’re in New York, you dabble in, you’ve got arms in finance, you got arms of insurance, and I don’t call them all tech companies, but they have massive technology, kind of runs pretty much everything we do these days anyways. So they may not be a tech company, but technology kind of runs pretty much all you’re doing on a day to day basis. I

Anthony (host): 35:55

mentioned in the intro, Chris, that there are two core philosophies that you live by. What are.

Chris (guest): 36:02

I follow two core philosophies. One is, if it’s not fun, it’s not worth doing. And the other is, find something you’re good at and do it better than anybody else.

Anthony (host): 36:13

How did you come about with these?

Chris (guest): 36:16

I

Anthony (host): 36:16

have

Chris (guest): 36:17

no idea. To be totally honest with

Anthony (host): 36:18

you.

Chris (guest): 36:19

If it’s not fun, it’s not worth will. I did steal that from Sir Richard Branson, who is my business kind of icon and idol, if you will. One of my favorite books that I read by him is, I think, the title of the book, if it’s not fun, it’s not worth doing. And it really reminded me that that’s a key aspect of life. Your job is not this four letter word. You’re going to spend 75% of your life working, getting up for work, getting ready for work, what used to be commuting to work, working, commuting home from work, et cetera. That’s 75% of your life. So if it’s not fun, what are you doing? I mean, I get not everybody’s quote unquote, job is fun, but, man, I’m one of those types of people that I know there’s a lot of things out there that aren’t fun, but you can make it fun, and your job should be one of those. So if it’s not fun, it’s not worth doing. Second one is, find something you’re good at, do it better than anybody else I know. I heard that probably eons ago from somebody or variation of that. And it’s a philosophy I like to live by because it reminds me that in order for me to succeed, I need to know what I’m great at. And I need to excel at that because I’m not going to do everything right. I’m not going to do everything great. You can’t be great at everything, right? You’re going to be awesome at certain things. So what I want to do is be awesome at those things and then accelerate in those areas. And if there’s other areas that are weakness to me, I’m going to find help in those areas that I need help with. And I think one of my favorite things is the way Richard Branson talks about the way he built his companies, is when you recognize your weaknesses, hire people that offset your weaknesses. Right. So this idea of, like, when you need to constantly be working on your weaknesses, I’m like, sure, I guess if you want to, but I don’t know why you would do that. Get help in the places you’re weaker in, understand your weaknesses and get help there. What you should be working on is your strengths because that’s where you’re going to excel. Right? I’m a huge baseball guy. I’m a baseball enthusiast. I love it. I played the sport and I always look at it as like, you can be a great baseball player, you can be a very good baseball player, but you’re a great center fielder. There’s nothing better than being the best center fielder in the game or the best catcher in the game. Very rarely are you going to be the best catcher and first baseman and center field and right fielder. It just doesn’t work that way. So if you play your position the best, you’re going to surround yourself with other people with the same mentality who are playing their position the best. You will build a better team that way as well. So that’s the way I kind of echo it and then my company structure the same way. Our teams are built on a technology vertical. If you’re placing data scientist, understand data science better than anybody else out there, understand DevOps better than anybody else out there, you don’t need to understand. You’ll know software engineering, you’ll know data, but you need to know this area the best. And if you focus on that, it comes across when you start talking to people and we talk to people and they’re like most of the guys that work for me, I’m going to be honest with you, they could probably pass an entry level interview. They know enough about their craft.

Anthony (host): 39:56

What are you awesome at, Chris, give you a second here to toot your own

Chris (guest): 39:59

horn. What

Anthony (host): 40:00

are your strengths?

Chris (guest): 40:01

So I’m awesome at mean,

Anthony (host): 40:03

I’m

Chris (guest): 40:04

an

Anthony (host): 40:04

exception. You break the.

Chris (guest): 40:08

1. I’m a relationship guy. I love business relationships. I’m a conversationalist.

Chris (guest): 40:16

Over the years, I’ve gone from a tremendous, high performing salesperson, mostly because I just understand what people are looking for. I understand how to interview people. I understand how to gather information and present it and then fill in the gaps where people really need help and then guide people along the way. Very honest and transparent. The way I’ve done things. So that has always worked well for me. It’s turned into the way I manage people. So what I love doing is the way I manage people is I love to influence the best they have inside of them to be better than they ever thought they could be, but also give them the understanding, what I would call it, quote unquote, the freedom to exercise that greatness that they have to say that you’re awesome at this, man. Let’s excel on it. Let’s punctuate that. Let’s put an exclamation point behind that. Yeah, but I’m working on this. Don’t worry about the things you’re working on. You’re always going to be working on something. Let’s go after this. And then you see them just light up like, wow. So those are the things that I’m great at. And then the things I suck at are spreadsheets, are understanding hardcore data analytics and financial analysis, and I don’t have any interest. I can put together a spreadsheet and I stare at it and my eyes start to get blurry. And then I say, what am I doing looking at this thing? And then I hand it off to somebody and says, can you do me a favor? Look at this and tell me what it says. So I’m great at people management, the people side of the business, understanding the business and sales side of the business, and kind of the people conversation, goodness stuff. That’s what I do.

Anthony (host): 41:58

That’s great. You had mentioned Richard Branson as somebody that you have looked up to and learned a lot from. Are there other books or mentors or even experiences that have helped to shape your career?

Chris (guest): 42:11

So, yes, not so much people that a lot of like Richard Branson is one of. I just love everything that that guy stands for in a lot of ways. I mean, he owns an island. The guy goes, he’s in his 60s or 70s these days, still goes kite surfing. You’ll have never seen a picture of the Richard Branson when he’s not smiling. So just look at that. I’m like, as a business owner, why wouldn’t you want to be that way? So it’s beautiful. Believe it or not, the things that really influenced my career to really help get me where I am are. I was very fortunate enough a long time ago. I worked in finance and loan origination with a company called Homebank, and we were one of Fortune magazine’s top 100 companies to work for two years in a row. And it really taught me a lot about loving your job, loving the company you worked for, because the way that company was built was about a family. You had coworkers, but they really felt like brothers and sisters and we would do anything for each other. And what really taught me a lot about was, like, when you love your job and you love the company you work for, really how that translates into the service and the way you communicate to your customers is phenomenal. And your customer base can hear it and they understand that, like, wow, this is a guy that not only is very good at his job, but loves his job. And people gravitate towards something like that. And that was awesome. And I built a great career working for a company like that. That really taught me a lot about the power of creating an environment where people just love their job. One of my mentors, I still talk to him randomly these days. His name is Chris Lewis, and I don’t know if he ever listens to these things, but if he’s out there, he knows who I’m talking about. The man he really, as a people manager, was the best I ever indirectly worked for because he really understood me as a human being first, my needs, my wants, my desires, and the way I operated. And he was able to help translate that into my job, which was sales, which was going out there and getting business. And he really put a smile on my face and really encouraged me just to be me and have fun just going out there and selling my ass off. And what it really taught me was the value of. The value of you get as an employee when that person you’re working for really listens to you and really understands you was invaluable. And most of my career, I have worked for people that well. Let’s just say that’s not the first thing on their mind. Their first thing on their mind is, what have you done for me lately? How much have you sold? How many widgets are in your pipeline? Not are you happy? Not are you healthy? Not are you doing well, but are you feeding my bank account for me? And needless to say, as you start, you don’t resonate too well with those people after a certain period of time. And you’re like, you know what? I don’t really want to do this anymore. So the people that have helped shape my career, honestly, those types of things, and being a big athlete and being a big sports guy, being a big baseball player really taught me the value of teams. When I built the company, it was really built around the idea of it takes nine players on a baseball team to win a championship, not one MVP. And most of the time, the MVP is not actually on the winning team. If you look at football or a lot of other areas for that matter, you can win the MVP or you can win the championship. And if you ever ask those people, 99% of the time, they’d say, I’d rather win a championship. You can take your MVPs. It sounds good. Being great as an individual contributor, but put me on a team that’s winning. I want to be a part of that environment. And so that goes back to that analogy of being the best at your position, playing your position the best and having fun and trusting the people around you that they are going to be the best at what they do, and together, building that environment where we’re awesome together. So those are the things that really inspired my career and my ability to get to where I am today.

Anthony (host): 46:43

So I’m curious to dive into a little piece of what you just mentioned there when you talk about sort of not treating your employees as just like another cog in a wheel and what’s your pipeline look like? And let’s just talk about the numbers and really thinking about them more from the human side of things. How are you? How are you feeling? Are you having fun? What’s going on in your life? What does that look like for you as a business leader in practice? How does that actually come into play with your employees on a regular

Chris (guest): 47:14

basis? You really need to know your people. I think that’s the more important part than anything else is I really know the people that report directly to me, and I teach the manager. When people report directly to you, you need to understand who they are as a human being first, what they are, motivating factors, et cetera, et cetera. But you need to understand their personalities. You need to understand what drives them. You need to understand their family situation, their life situation, what their goals are really what they’re going for. And then when you really start to understand, then as you manage them, then you have a common denominator or a wheel to work around. So that’s the thing about it. People management, in my opinion, is probably the most difficult job there is out there, period. And anyone who’s ever tried to manage a team, I can tell you, if you say that it’s easy, you’re lying. It can be simple if you follow. But I read the book, right? And I’m doing everything the book says. But the book didn’t tell you what happens when your key player is in the middle of divorce, right? Your book didn’t tell you what to do when one of your employees has got two young kids at home that are sick and a pregnant wife. No book is going to tell you that. The book didn’t tell you about what happens when, God forbid, an injury or someone’s sick or, I don’t know. Let’s just say life throws you curveballs, right? So you’ve got to understand their situation first. In order to understand what’s going on with them. Just because they’re performing doesn’t mean they’re happy. Just because they’re quote unquote happy doesn’t mean they’re going to perform. And just because they’re not performing doesn’t mean they’re. Or just because they’re not performing doesn’t mean they’re not happy. And I think anyone, we’ve been there sometimes where it’s like, I’ve been miserable at my job and I’m not performing. And I had a boss that worked for me. He’s like, well, Chris, the reason why you’re miserable is because your numbers aren’t where they need to be. And I was like, no, the reason I’m not doing well is because I’ve got some personal shit that I’m dealing with right now. And I genuinely hate working here. I hate this job. How about that one? Every time you call me, I want to duck the call, but I can’t because you’re my boss and you’re never going to stop nagging me. What about your numbers? What about your numbers? What about my numbers? And all I want to do is tell you, take your numbers and shut them up. Your sunshine. Sure, probably some areas in there to edit, but you can see the passion that’s around that. It’s like, why would you want to manage people that way? Don’t manage people that way. Manage human beings. Because they’re human beings first. Understand that first, and then you should be allowed to manage people. I

Anthony (host): 50:30

think that kind of dovetails nicely into the next question I want to ask you. You’re talking about personal struggles that people go through. And I think a lot of times people look at us as business leaders, as business owners, and think we got it all figured out. And there’s always sunshine and rainbows, and

Chris (guest): 50:48

the

Anthony (host): 50:48

bank account always looks great, and every business owner I’ve ever talked to, there’s stories behind the scenes that people don’t hear, where things almost fell apart. Maybe you struggled to make payroll. Maybe there was a fire, maybe there was a lawsuit. Maybe there was something, some really big challenge that you had to work through. I’m curious if you’ve had any experiences like that that you might be comfortable sharing with us. Big list.

Chris (guest): 51:20

Oh, my God. I think the problem is going to have me narrow it down. There’s nothing but challenges. If you want to be at the top, you better be prepared for challenges beyond what you think you might be capable of dealing with, because you will find things that you’re made of internally that can make or break you and, yeah, challenges. I mean, let’s talk about arguably the worst economic tech and downturn in technology hiring I’ve seen in 25 years. That has forced me to, last year in 2022. And the other trophies from 2023, the best staffing and recruiting company to work for in North America two years in a row. I opened up 2023 and I had to lay off 75% of my staff. And you want to talk about suck?

Chris (guest): 52:32

This is why all the books that are out there, most of them are crap. Because really, where’s the chapter in the book on how to deal with knowing tomorrow morning you’re going to wake up and lay off your entire staff. You’re going to take these people that have worked and that are loyal to you, and you now get to tell them that they get to go look for a job that’s about as shitty as a feeling that you get to sleep with. And those are a lot of the sleepless nights when struggles really happen. As a real leader, you worry about letting people down. You have a lot of people that are sitting there looking at you, they’re following you, they’re trusting you. You’re the pioneer. You’re the guy with the machete going, hey, listen, there’s no path. I’m making one. Let’s go. And there’s a lot on your shoulders when something’s like that. And as a leader, there’s a fear of letting people down. When you’re at the top, they talk about it. It’s lonely at the top. Well, I tell you it’s true. There’s no water cooler up where you are. When you’re sitting up there, the buck stops with you. You need to figure out what you’re made of. And there’s a lot of decisions that are very difficult to make, and a lot of people don’t understand that. And when you are a people first leader, it hurts when things don’t work. Now, if it’s a system or a tool and you try it and it breaks, BFD. Oh, just try something new. It’s try. You fail. You try and you fail. Cool. But when you’ve got people that work for you and it can create emotional state, it can really beat you up. And that’s a tough one. And again, that’s the people side of it. If you want to be at the top, you better understand everything that’s associated with it, and that is success and failure. So there’s a lot of sleepless nights up there. Yeah. There’s a lot of money. There’s a lot of money that can be made, but there’s a lot of money that can be lost. And you want to take care of your family, you want to put food on the table, you got mortgages to pay, you’ve got all these things you got to take care of. Unfortunately, you’re at the rise and fall of the ship. If it’s not doing well, you’re not doing well.

Chris (guest): 55:08

Let’s put it this way, pisses me off out there, but I’m not going to lay off 45,000 people to make my balance sheet look good, to get my stock to double in price so my net worth goes up, which a lot is what’s been going on these days, right? Shedding the weight to get the stock price up. I’m not that type of leader. Probably makes me not the most intelligent business person, but I’m not that type of leader. So there’s a lot of work and there’s a lot of work when you start to look at where are we right now and how do you rebuild after the storm, those are challenge. Those are real challenges that you have to fight through.

Anthony (host): 55:48

What advice do you have for somebody who might be going through something similar or maybe to ask it a different way, is you mentioned that was early 2023 where you had to lay off 75% of your staff. What advice would you like to be able to give to yourself a year and a half ago

Anthony (host): 56:14

to help you get through it, to process it differently, to manage it differently. What do you feel like you’ve kind of learned looking in the rear view mirror now.

Chris (guest): 56:28

Here’s a couple of things. Where I am in my life, as long as I’ve been doing what I’ve done, if I had to have conversations with myself a while ago, number one, it’s always safe for a rainy day. Sooner or later, it will rain. Don’t self sabotage, but understand that business has ups and downs, business has ebbs and flows. Plan accordingly. Number two, don’t get caught up with the emotional wants. And I talk about emotional wants. Follow your gut. If you have a gut feeling that something’s going on, there’s a reason why you have it. Write it down, follow through on it. Check into it. Get help. Be vulnerable. You don’t have all the answers. Go get help. Talk to people. Network with people. Associate yourself with people at a peer level or a peer level above you that can provide you influence and answers that you just don’t have. Don’t rely on the Internet. Don’t go buy another book, sit down, have a cup of coffee, talk to people that are in similar situations you are or that you can aspire to be and get input from them on what they are doing and how they have done things. It doesn’t matter if they are older than you, if they are younger than you, if they’ve been doing it longer than you. Everybody does something just a little bit different, and there’s always something you can learn. So look, to learn something

Chris (guest): 58:01

I would say is also asked me a question, I think a little while ago, the advice that I would give someone, or I was saying myself, no matter how much it hurts, don’t worry about how much it hurts today, because tomorrow the pain will go away and you will be stronger and wiser because of it. So be grateful. It may suck in the middle of it, and I’m in the middle of it right now, and it may hurt and it may suck, and there may be a lot of sleepless nights. But you know what? How I became better at everything I do, how I became wiser, how I became bigger, faster and stronger is because of the challenges I went through. So start your day, every day, with a moment of gratitude. Be thankful for your breath. Be thankful for your heart. Be thankful for the moon, the sun, the stars. Be thankful the people you’ve surrounded yourself with, the choices you made. Be thankful for the way I got here today. Be thankful for the struggles that helped put me in the position that I can be in. Be thankful for the challenges. Remember that the universe is not out to get you. The universe has your back. It wants to see you successful. Continue to do the right things, believe in the path and follow through on it. And that whole idea of, like, I’m not a religious man, but have faith, trust in it will work out. If you just stay humble and work. Through it,

Anthony (host): 59:36

that’s really powerful. Thank you for sharing that.

Chris (guest): 59:38

Thanks.

Anthony (host): 59:39

Yeah, I hear a lot of times, companies that go through really powerfully struggling times, they do look back on it and like you suggest, they end up being very grateful for that struggle because it forced them to change the way that they did things. They pivoted either slightly or in a very large way, or they took on a new business direction or it put them in a position where they had to say, listen, we’ve got to try something new. We got to try something different. Are you guys in a place like that now?

Chris (guest): 1:00:20

Absolutely. I know we’re in a totally different way with the way people want to network with the people, want to interview with the way people are going to find people with, the way people want to communicate. I mean, God, look what’s happened over the last look at where we are these days versus, you know, 2019 four years ago. The pandemic, that seems like a long time ago, but it’s really not that long a time ago because most of us would choose to forget what 2020 really happened. But you will always remember and never forget where you were in April of 2020 because you were at home with the rest of us. So we got forced into a new way of communication. Now, zooms. Zoom is a verb. Hey, you want to jump on a zoom? Or it’s like it used to. So now you’ve got Google Meets, you’ve got text, you’ve got FaceTime. A lot more text messaging these days. A lot more of the robots are out making cold calls, right? So you look at your phone and we all will admit it. How many phone numbers call your cell phone on a day to day basis that you don’t recognize, that you immediately go boom, voicemail because you know it’s a robocall. Now, whether you know what it is or not, you’re not going to answer it just because you’ve already assumed it’s a robocall. So your sales environments have changed because now you can’t cold call, you can’t get in touch with people. If I’ve never met you before, unless I know who you are, how am I supposed to reach out to you now with the day and age of AI generated emails and bots doing all this lead development work, how do you know it’s real? How do you know if it’s any good? How are you supposed to separate yourself? Who’s really freaking good at what you do, and you know it and other people know it. And now you’re one of 55 emails that person is getting. So the day and age of just how we communicate, how we’re introduced to people, how conversations happen, it’s completely changed and you’ve got to figure it out. We’re constantly figuring it out. And I’ve got a board over here of little things that I’m trying. Let’s try this, let’s try that, let’s try this. And the ideas are working.

Anthony (host): 1:02:32

Yeah. Anything

Chris (guest): 1:02:33

you

Anthony (host): 1:02:33

care to share?

Chris (guest): 1:02:34

Yeah. What we’ve done is honestly, like, networking. I think that was the biggest thing about it. It’s a little primitive, but talk to the people that you know, that you talk to all the time that you’ve talked to the most, and reach out to those people because they want to connect with you, believe it or not. So reach out, talk to them. How are you? How are things going? How’s the last year been for you? Right? And what they’re finding out is like, wow, it’s just nice to hear from you. So great conversations with great people who know who you are. Continue to capitalize on your relationships with people, creating environments where people feel safe to network. I think social media is an interesting place these days where you have to be very careful with what you put out there, what you say, what your profile looks like. So honestly, I’m working on creating private networks for invite only people to an opportunity to network within my company, averity. We call the Averity network. You’re a friend of averity. Everybody should know each other. Free open forum for networking, communication, ideas, celebrations. As the dog got pretty excited, the dog got pretty excited about that one

Anthony (host): 1:03:56

also.

Chris (guest): 1:03:57

That

Anthony (host): 1:03:58

says

Chris (guest): 1:03:58

something. So areas like that.

Chris (guest): 1:04:06

So those are a couple of things that we’ve been working on. I think really to remind people know, in a people oriented business, you need to stay focused on people first.

Anthony (host): 1:04:19

You’ve got a ton of experience, Chris, and it sounds like you’ve had the opportunity to be able to share the wisdom that you’ve earned over the years. Tell me about some of the CEO and founder coaching that you’re doing.

Chris (guest): 1:04:34

Mostly what I found myself being able to work with is service oriented businesses who have got great ideas, but a lot of times either they don’t know where to start, they’ve started and they don’t know what to do next, or they’ve hit a plateau and they’re like, I don’t understand what’s really, what’s working or what’s not working or what’s going on. And they get to this point where they’re working 15, 20 hours a day because they’re trying to do all these different things, and they’re like, I just don’t know what to do. So I have found myself really, like, I’ll have young entrepreneurs especially. I need to start my company. What do I do? I love that question. And what I do is I’m like, okay, here are the things that no one’s going to talk to you about. Right? Again. Buy all the books. Right? You’re going to buy all the books? I have them all. They’re all in my library. None of them will tell you the things I’m going to tell you. That’s what I’ve realized because no one wants to admit these things. So I have a list of things. I start to go over people and I’m like, know the reality of know little things. Like, I found out if you want to be a service oriented business in sales, when you google yourself, what do you find? I’ve had people look at me like, I don’t think I’ve ever googled myself. I’m like, if you don’t google yourself twice a already because that’s the first thing your clients are going to do. When you reach out to people, the first thing they’re going to do is because what do you do? You Google it. Are you Google or Google or whatever, right, there you go. So just right off the bat, and I’ve had people just look at me like, oh, my God, I’ve never even thought about that. It’s like, aha. See? And that’s just an example of what I do. But I work with a lot of, I’ve worked with CEO of 120 person companies. He’s just stuck in a rut, just like, we’re not getting anywhere. We’re not going anywhere. I like my staff, I like my team. Sometimes today I want to fire them all. And it’s like, okay, well, great. And then it’s really helping them understand communication, little things that I can help them understand, processes in place to help them with a management standpoint, be like, oh, wow, that was really helpful. Thanks for that. Just shed some light on some things. Honestly, the big thing is I help a lot of just how to hire, how to build teams. They think they know how to do it because they’ve done it before, quote unquote. But you really don’t know how to do it because it’s an art and a science and it’s not easy. And so a lot of what it is, is I help a lot of people. Like, I need to hire people. I’m like, okay, what are you doing? Why are you hiring them? What are you looking for? What is their job? What’s your job? How are you giving? So really getting them to understand, really what’s going to happen when this person starts. And then it’s like, wow. Because most of the time people start with, I’m just on a list of skills that I need. Did you really start thinking of yourself, why you need those skills? And most of the time it’s like, well, because they’re going to be using them. Are they really going to be using them? And then you can start diving with people. So I get into it. That’s what I do a lot of those types of ways. And then I work with a lot of people, just honestly, good old fashioned mentality, reminding them they have the mentality when you start, but sooner or later you lost your mind because you forgot why you’re doing it. You look in the mirror and you’re like, I don’t even know who you are.

Anthony (host): 1:08:24

Yeah. Like you said, Chris, it’s lonely at the right. And we as business leaders, oftentimes we feel like there’s nobody to talk, know, we feel like we can’t reach to people that we talk to every day within our companies about what’s going on. And so having an outside resource like yourself that’s had all of those extra experiences that’s been there, that they, if nothing else, can just be a sounding board, too. But you’re more than that, right? Because you do have those decades of experience of having been there, having done that, and you can tell them the things that aren’t in the books. It’s kind of a shortcut or a cheat code for them.

Chris (guest): 1:08:59

Yeah, I think one of the fun things, I have built the best company to work for in North America two years in a row. I’ve built phenomenal environments on a national level. I think in my career. I’ve got nine startups under my belt that have all been wildly successful. I’ve managed, hired, and trained probably up to ballpark 200 people in my career, and I’m not that old. So despite what you.

Anthony (host): 1:09:26

Those are

Chris (guest): 1:09:27

doing. That much is what makes us gray, by the way. It’s not the age that does it. But, yeah, I’ve got a lot of experience, and I thought about writing a book, but then also takes a lot. I just keep thinking about, I’m like, it go over real well, but I like the real world scenarios of like, hey, what are you really going through? Okay, let’s talk about it.

Anthony (host): 1:09:55

Chris, let’s talk a little bit about passions and interests outside of your company.

Chris (guest): 1:10:02

You

Anthony (host): 1:10:02

mentioned baseball, you mentioned the Red

Chris (guest): 1:10:04

Sox.

Anthony (host): 1:10:04

We touched briefly on some in the intro. What do you want to give voice to

Chris (guest): 1:10:08

here? I love projects. I’m a habitual project finder guy. I get very passionate. I’m a Capricorn. I get very passionate when I find an interest and I get into it. So funny thing is, that’s how I got a pilot’s license. It’s not that I have a passion for flying. I just really wanted to do it. I was sitting in traffic, looked up in the sky, saw an airplane, and said, that would be so cool. Got home, looked up on the know, flight lessons. This is when I lived in LA, Santa Monica airport was right down the street, got in the plane, started flying, and I was like, I’m addicted. Followed through, got my pilot’s license. Why not? So something like that. I love golf. I suck at it, but I love know why not? I love baseball because I was a big baseball player. I get the interests of the game, interesting things that people that you wouldn’t know. So I will say this. I am a phenomenal cook. I can cook almost anything. I don’t have, like, a secret sauce to a dish. It is my form of therapy. I go by feeling, I go by taste. I know what’s going to go with what. I know how to cook things for as long as they’re supposed to be done. And I got to tell you, my wife is a very happy person. And my kids will brag about my cooking all the time. I love it. So something is pretty cool. I’m the son of Marie, an amazing man. But my father was a self employed carpenter, builder, and award winning finished carpenter. So I was an inherited this innate ability with woodworking. I have a detached garage now. It’s basically a woodworking area. My wife loves. Hey, can you build an entry table for the foyer? Absolutely. And put together this beautiful entry table. I’ll build it. Two days later, she come back and go, oh, my God, this is gorgeous. I’m like, thank you, babe. So I love woodworking. I love doing things like that. I have a green thumb. I have a very large piece property in South Carolina. So what happens when you move out of New York? You get these things called acres. I have five of them. And in the front, I have a very enormous garden that now I’m getting ready for the upcoming season. And I have a tremendous green thumb. And I have a lot of passion for growing my own food, for sustainable farming, for sustainable, organic food. Nothing like going out there and picking a cucumber off the vine and just eating it or picking sugar snap peas and just when you want a snack going out there. My kids love it. They go out there and they will literally eat the kale right off the branch. And it’s hysterical because they just go out there and they just eat the kale. Now, if I cut the kale and bring it in the house, sometimes they won’t eat it because they look at it and they’re like, what’s that? I’m like, it’s the kale that you were just eating up and be like, I don’t want it. But if it’s on the plant they’ll eat it. They don’t make any sense. But, hey, that’s the way it is. So I like to be passionate about things and follow through on them and find something I’m good at and do it really well.

Anthony (host): 1:13:28

That’s great. I can see how you lit up talking about all of those things. That’s great. There’s an identifiable amount of passion in

Chris (guest): 1:13:38

that. You got to have hobbies. You got to have hobbies. You can see behind me. I got two guitars, you got to have hobies. I’m not great. I can play. You need things that keep you sharp, that keep you fun, that keep you youthful, they keep you friendly, they keep you passionate. You got to have these things because. I’m not

Anthony (host): 1:14:02

allow you to shift your mind from one gear to another gear, but still stay active.

Chris (guest): 1:14:06

Absolutely.

Anthony (host): 1:14:07

It’s refreshing.

Chris (guest): 1:14:08

So, yeah, I love it. Sometimes the first thing I do, I sit down at the desk, I start looking at everything I need to do, and I take a step back and I breathe. I’m like, I’ll grab the acoustic and I’ll just start whittling away for, like, ten to 15 minutes before my 830 meetings. And then I’m like, all right, I’m mics and relax, and it feels good.

Anthony (host): 1:14:26

That’s great. Chris, I just have one more question for you, but before I ask it, what is the best way for people to get in touch with you?

Chris (guest): 1:14:34

You can find me on LinkedIn. So still great network out there. I try to connect with everybody, but if you want to find me, obviously. First name, Chris. Last name, Alair. A l l a I r e. Averity. A v E r I t y. Find me on LinkedIn. Reach out to me. Glad to connect. You want to shoot me an email? Not bad. First name, last name at averity team. Not the best way to get in touch with me, to be brutally honest with you. I get buried with emails, as I’ve mentioned earlier in the show, so I can’t guarantee. I love to say I get back to all of them on time, but realistically, I just don’t. But those,

Anthony (host): 1:15:19

it’s good to know. And we’ll have all your links in the show notes so

Chris (guest): 1:15:22

people

Anthony (host): 1:15:23

can refer

Chris (guest): 1:15:23

1. That’s how you can find me.

Anthony (host): 1:15:24

Yeah. Great. Okay, last question for you, Chris. How do you see your industry evolving in? Typically, I ask this question, I say the next five to ten years, but I think with as rapidly as your landscape is changing, what’s it look like in the next three to five years? Do you

Chris (guest): 1:15:42

think. I think in general, what we’re going to see is a lot more reliance and a lot more distribution on international resources. I think it was going on for years. We called it globalization or offshoring, but these development teams and technical teams in the Ukraine, Portugal, Argentina, Brazil. But I think there’s going to be tremendous growth in Mexico, Mexico City, the whole Latin american and near shore. I think there’s tremendous opportunities down there, and I think these are amazing people with amazing talents. And so I think we’re going to start seeing a lot more, rather than being remote, hiring some person in Texas or Florida or Maryland or wherever they are, I think a lot more people are going to look towards international resources. I think there’s going to be a lot more lean on outsourcing. I think what’s going to happen is they’re going to realize, especially in recruiting, they may have somebody that works internally that can help organize, schedule, coordinate. But especially from a technology standpoint, you need to be experts in the field in order to get really good technology people. You need to understand the difference between distributed systems and web technologies. And it’s all using Python, but you need to know the difference between these things. Hiring somebody internal to do that type of stuff is not going to work. It hasn’t worked. That’s why we’re still in business. I’ve been in this for 25 years. There’s a reason for it. You’re not going to be replaced with a robot. So I don’t think anybody needs to worry about that. But I think more organizations are going to really start to lean towards more strategic outsourcing, strategic resources, strategic partnerships for these really high level positions, and really understanding strategic needs. They’re going to turn to the people that really know that are the best at it. I think there’s going to be a place, and we are building one, where companies are going to want to have an online shopping experience for an introduction of candidates. Not social media, but like a place where people can go. I need a senior software engineer that knows Java in Python. I just want to know who’s out there, who’s available. Give me some ideas on some profiles that I can start to click on. She gets excited. She likes it, I think. No different than when you’re shopping for a car, right. I want to be able to know what’s available. Where is it? Where can I find it? Right. I’m not going to buy it on the Internet, but I want to test drive it. I want to go take a look at it, and then that’s really what it is. So it’s the introduction to the shopping experience. I think we’re going to see a lot more of that. And we are already pioneered something. We called it the human portal. It’s called human bioity. And it’s literally an online portal where you can go and you can see profiles of people that are vetted, what they do, what they really do, what they want to do, and who’s available. And it gives you an idea, like when I want somebody, this is a way easier way to go than send an ad out there and have 700 ad response come in. I think there’s going to be less open social media, in my opinion. I don’t know how, but I have a feeling that there’s going to be more membership type networks where people are speaking to people that they know that they have something in common with, that are the right that’s already out there in different groups. But I think a lot where it’s going to be, people are going to be getting off of not so much off of Twitter and off of these things, but they’re fun. The Instagrams and the TikToks of the world. And don’t get me wrong, it’s great. But I think when you really want to be, you need to learn to be like, okay, where do I really need to go? And so I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s going to be less social, like open social media and more like to find informative groups to find what and who you’re looking for that can do the what.

Anthony (host): 1:19:56

That’s great. Thank you so much for sharing your story with us today. I appreciate it. 

Chris (guest): 1:20:02

This has been fun. Thanks so much for the opportunity, Anthony. It’s been great.

Anthony (host): 1:20:06

All right, folks, that’s a wrap on another episode of the Inspired Stories podcast. Thanks for learning with us today.