From NASA to Food Manufacturing: How Philip Tulkoff Modernized a Family Legacy | Manufacturing Series

Anthony Codispoti: Welcome to another edition of the Inspired Stories podcast where leaders share their experiences so we can learn from their successes and be inspired by how they’ve overcome adversity. My name is Anthony Codispoti and today’s guest is Philip Tulkoff, President of Tolkoff Food Products. Founded in the 1930s, they are a third generation manufacturer of condiments, specialty sauces and ingredients. They’ve built the reputation on providing high-quality products for retail, food service and co-packed customers. They have been recognized for their dedication to consistent quality and remarkable taste.

With a focus on delivering exceptional flavors and innovative ideas, the company has thrived for over 95 years. Now Philip has led the company since 2005, drawing on his extensive background in both business and engineering. Before becoming president, he held roles as a thermal control engineer at NASA and Swayl’s Aerospace and also served as president of Peat Computer Solutions.

He earned his MBA in finance from Loyola University, Maryland, and holds a BS in mechanical engineering from Bucknell University. His leadership and commitment to excellence have helped the company remain a trusted name in the food industry. Now before we get into all that good stuff, today’s episode is brought to you by my company, Add Back Benefits Agency, where we offer very specific and unique employee benefits that are both great for your team and fiscally optimized for your bottom line. One recent client was able to add over $900 per employee per year in extra cash flow by implementing one of our innovative programs. Results vary for each company and some organizations may not be eligible.

To find out if your company qualifies, contact us today at addbackbenefitsagency.com. All right, back to our guest today, the president of Tolkov Food Products. Phil, I appreciate you making the time to share your story today.

Philip Tulkoff: Hey Anthony, it’s nice to meet you and glad to be here.

Anthony Codispoti: Okay, so Phil, it’s been a family business for several generations here, but before you got involved, you went off and did your own thing for a while. Why is that?

Philip Tulkoff: I did. I went to undergraduate and got an engineering degree. It was something I, I guess I always wanted to do. I found one of those kids books that you fill out when you’re younger that says, you know, what’s your favorite color and what’s your favorite sport?

What do you want to be when you grow up? And I literally had filled it in an engineer. So I guess that was something, you know, before I was 10 years old that I aspired to do and did that. And, you know, wanted to do my own thing and try engineering and see if I liked it. And joining the family business, at least initially, was not on my radar.

Anthony Codispoti: And so what is a thermal control engineer? I mean, are you a rocket scientist?

Philip Tulkoff: No, no. Though I used to say it when I started at Tolkovs, like this isn’t rocket science, right? Thermal control is basically when I started, the space shuttle was was in full bloom and lots of lots of different missions. What we would do is with either shuttle payloads or free flying satellites that, you know, went up in the shuttle, we put systems together to keep them at operating temperatures so they didn’t get too hot or too cold. And then also worked on some free flying satellites that were up there that were launched for with traditional rockets for the same reason, make sure they’re not too hot or too cold. Okay.

Anthony Codispoti: And so you did that directly with NASA for a little while, and then you were doing the same kind of work, but through another company, like a subcontractor at NASA?

Philip Tulkoff: Yeah, exactly. They were a they were a NASA contractor, started out really doing the same exact kind of work. And then while I was there, I decided to go back and get my MBA at night. So I was working there during the day, went to Loyal at night to get my MBA in finance. And honestly, just a few classes in, I was kind of sold. I really loved the business side of thing, found it interesting, fascinating. And when it was done, I really wanted to move on to the business side from the engineering side. First opportunity was they created a sort of a project management group at Swales.

I worked for the director of that for a while. And then we got tasked to do a financial budgeting and reporting system that met the NASA requirements. So I worked hand in hand with the IT manager at Swales. And through that, I learned how to do database programming. And we were able to come up with a system where we literally pressed a button and it spit out all the requirements that we could deliver to NASA.

Part of our fee structure was basically how accurate and how quickly we were able to do that. So we put together an amazing system. I sort of got hooked on the computer side. And then a few years later, the IT manager myself were the ones that left and started P-Computer Solutions to do computer consulting as a full time.

Anthony Codispoti: What kind of consulting were you doing with particular platforms you were focused on?

Philip Tulkoff: Yeah, so I mean, the fun part of it was this was the early 90s, things were changing so fast that that you were in one thing six months and into something else in other six months. We started out with, I’m going to date myself, novel networking and built some of our own PCs when that was a viable thing to do. But we did a lot of database programming, custom programming. So back then, there wasn’t a lot of software available that unless you were a programmer, you really couldn’t write your own code. Or you had to do it on a mainframe.

There wasn’t a lot of PC stuff out there. So we started out with a database and then went to Clipper and then FoxPro. And it was fun because we got hooked up with all kinds of different companies to do all kinds of different challenges. One that was really interesting was when the smoking cessation patches first came out, the company had these little surveys they wanted the pharmacist to fill out with a person using the patch. Those would get sent in and then the pharmacist would get a dollar for each survey. And then we would also collect the data that was that was filled in on this little survey.

And so we’re meeting with a client about it and we’re like, piece of cake, we’ll take care of it, you know, how soon do you need it? And they said, we’ll come with us. We walked into another conference room, they opened the door, the entire room, I’m talking about the floor, every chair, the table was covered in those white US mail buckets, completely full of filled out surveys that were ready to get processed. So stuff like that, it was just, it was a blast. It was a lot of fun.

Anthony Codispoti: Okay, so I’m curious about that particular one because when you first described the project, it’s like, oh, they’re filling out surveys, I think they’re keying it in somewhere. And so you’ve got to take the data and make sense of it. No, no, you’ve got heart copies now that you’ve got to somehow, are you scanning them in? I mean, this was back in what, the early 90s?

Philip Tulkoff: This was the early 90s. No, they had staff that would type it in, but we had to create the software that accepted it, you know, put in the exact question that was being asked, put in the pharmacist, because then we had to track how many of these surveys this pharmacist collected over this period. And then we would actually, the software would cut the check to the pharmacist. So it did, it did all those things. But no, we weren’t typing anything in.

And this is well before scanning was really prevalent. Yeah, these were done on, I think we did it in Clipper and it was a Novel network, multi-user based system that we put together.

Anthony Codispoti: Okay, so this is pre-oracle sequel kind of days?

Philip Tulkoff: Yeah, not sequel or anything like that. No, it was a multi-user database, but not sequel. Okay, we got into that later.

Anthony Codispoti: Okay, so you guys are around from the very early days of the web then, what, when, first of all, I guess, did that become a big part of what you were doing? And if so, I’m kind of curious when you guys sort of realized where that was going, what it was going to become?

Philip Tulkoff: Yeah, so we, we did, we started doing websites pretty early on. We had somebody on staff that was pretty artistic and creative. So he was doing, you know, the website’s for us, making them look good, working with the clients, still doing more database kind of stuff. We started to get into some internet security. We did some of that for a little while. We did, oh, the name escapes me. There was like remote access kind of things, software that was out there. We got into that kind of stuff. And then what happened was the dot-com boom kind of hit and my partner, who was a brilliant computer guy, I mean, not only could he do hardware, he could do software, and he could talk to people, right?

Anthony Codispoti: He was not, Oh, that’s, that’s a rare breed of skills.

Philip Tulkoff: Wow, he found a unicorn. Yep. And he basically got an offer that he couldn’t refuse. And, you know, he parted. We were good friends and I said, you know, do what’s best for you and your family.

He did that. And then we ended up merging the company into an accounting firm and kind of morphed more into supporting this one software that was for membership and trade associations. It was kind of an ERP for that. And we’re a reseller for it. So we were installing it, training on it, setting it up and things like that. And that became kind of the focus at that point.

Anthony Codispoti: Okay. So then when did you get the inkling that you wanted to head into the family business?

Philip Tulkoff: Yeah. So, so after the merger into the accounting firm, it took about two years for me to realize it just wasn’t a good marriage. And I ended up going back to Swales in a different role.

I was the manager of one of their aerospace manufacturing divisions that had been created, did that for two years. And I got a call from, I guess it was my father and he wanted to meet for dinner. It was me and him, the prior CFO and one of the other board members. And they basically said, Hey, we’re kind of a crossroads. The two guys that were running it, one of them was going to retire. The other was going to take over.

These were non family members who had been running it for a while at this point. And one was in his early 70s. And the other one who was in his mid 50s was going to take over. But he ended up getting really sick and ended up in the hospital for a year and was became obvious within a few months that he was never going to be able to work again, unfortunately.

And the other guy, his last thing he wanted to do was take everything over because he was trying to retire. So they called me up and said, Hey, this is either an opportunity for you, or we’re going to go out and find somebody else outside the family to run it. You know, at this point, I had been working for swales for a while. While I liked the people in the job, I had a lot of entrepreneurial bent, right? I’d worked for myself and done my own thing and sort of that itch. I needed to scratch it again. And I said, I would take on that challenge. So I like to say it was unfortunately some other people’s misfortune that became my opportunity. Gotcha.

Anthony Codispoti: And what did you find when you walked in the doors there in what was it 2005?

Philip Tulkoff: 2005, right after New Year’s, like January, whatever, a second or third, I walked in the door, pretty much found a rattlesnake under everything I picked up. It was, it was eye opening. I mean, I had to learn the business, right? I mean, obviously, I understood manufacturing in general, having been an engineer and worked in manufacturing for the aerospace company.

But I had to, you know, learn the people, the process, how things worked. But it was very backwards, you know, the people that ran up before me, they did not invest much in the infrastructure, in the equipment, in the people. And we were behind. We were way behind in a lot of ways.

Anthony Codispoti: Say more about that. What do you mean that you were behind? Like, yeah, so have the best manufacturing equipment or yeah, that too.

Philip Tulkoff: Let’s say let’s start with no PCs in the entire building.

Anthony Codispoti: This is 2005. There were no personal computers.

Philip Tulkoff: There were green screen dumb terminals that were linked to an old IBM system 36 that had a cobalt based bastardized distribution system that basically did some inventory and invoicing. That was about it.

Wow. Nobody had email. We did not have an internet connection.

The website we had was unmaintained. It was a mess. It was not accurate. The equipment, most of it was very old. The infrastructure, the building itself was not well maintained. It was leaky. Every time it rained, the roof, the roof leaked.

They just had not put money into, into anything. And people wise, you know, we had some good core, a core group of good people, but there was a lot of people that were there because it was the cheapest person they could hire to get the job done.

Anthony Codispoti: So what’s the first rattlesnake that you decided to grab ahold of and take care of?

Philip Tulkoff: Let’s say first thing was, well, first of all, I had an overlap with my predecessor for about eight months. So I had to tread a little lightly there. But when I moved, first moved in there, they had had a 1031 tax-free exchange contract on the table to swap our building with another building because the area we were in was getting very gentrified. And while we had room to expand and we had a lot of property there, I knew that in the long run it was not the place to be because they were putting residential and offices and retail all around us. And you don’t want to be a horse riders factory in the middle of all that, right?

Everybody’s going to complain about you, the noise, the smell, the trucks, they weren’t going to be happy. So we knew we had to, had to move out. So I took a look at the property they wanted to swap with and it was terrible. It was just not a good deal.

It was, it was not a, it was not an upgrade. So I canceled that contract and started looking around for where else could we move to and found a piece of land still in Baltimore City that was open property, it was owned by the city in the Hollowbird Industrial Park and was able to purchase that. And we went down the path of designing a building, a building. We moved into that in 2008.

Anthony Codispoti: Real quick, what’s a 1031?

Philip Tulkoff: 1031 tax-free exchange is that you can actually swap your building with somebody else and not have to pay any taxes. It’s a way to avoid appreciation. So, you know, they had bought that building in 1979 for a lot less money than it was worth 30 years later. So it’s a way to, to reduce that tax liability.

Anthony Codispoti: And those same people wanted your building so that they could develop the site and put in houses or retail or whatever it was.

Philip Tulkoff: Correct, exactly. So where our building used to be in that, that property is now a large apartment complex. And then some of the existing buildings they kept because we were on what used to be the Schaefer Brewery property. So that prior to that, it was Gunthers and prior to that was Hambs Brewery. So it went back to the late 1800s. So there was a lot of beautiful brick buildings when the property, they saved all those and repurposed them. They did a great job. The whole area is now called Brewer’s Hill and they, everything’s beer themed, right?

There’s beer bottle kind of labels out there and the names of the buildings are like, you know, the Porter and the Gunther and stuff like that. So it’s, they did a great job. It’s beautiful. Okay.

Anthony Codispoti: So did you have to wait to make like a lot of manufacturing and like facility upgrades until you moved into this new facility three years later?

Philip Tulkoff: Yeah, yeah, because it didn’t make sense to put money into the facility we were in. We bought mostly new packaging equipment when we moved into the new facility and had it just delivered there. Did what we did to get by in the old facility, just patch what we could and got by.

I would say the first personnel move that I made was I fired the quality control manager. It was, it was a story where I walked in the men’s room, he walked out of a stall, walked right past me and walked back into the plant. Did not stop to wash his hands.

Anthony Codispoti: Was that the only thing or had there, I’m going to guess there were other red flags?

Philip Tulkoff: There were other things, but that was, yeah, but that sort of sums up, yeah, what was going on. Thumbed up his attitude about, you know, cleanliness and stuff like that.

So, you know, replaced him pretty quickly. And then also we were at the time we did not have a like a food quality program. So, we were using AIB for audits, which is more sort of plant oriented and things like that, but everybody was moving to GFSI, which is Global Food Safety Initiative. And under that, you had different like SQF and BRC, but we didn’t have any of those. So, that was the next thing we did was to move to be able to get SQF qualified. And most of our customers were moving to a point where you had to be SQF qualified to even do business with them. So, that was a big undertaking because there’s so much, you know, paperwork involved in a process you have to put in place and you have to test the system and all kinds of things. So, that was that was a several year process.

Anthony Codispoti: I think you just answered my question. I was wondering, you know, is somebody who’s coming into this from the outside, how did you know that you needed to move to SQF? Because it wasn’t something that was already, you know, an initiative that was moving forward internally, but it sounds like your customers were the one saying, hey, Phil, we

Philip Tulkoff: need customers were driving in that direction. And I don’t know if you remember it, but back there was a huge peanut debacle where there was a peanut butter company that got caught falsifying records and stuff. And a lot of people got sick.

There was, I think it was Salmonella or Listeria or something like that. And they were AIB certified. So AIB got a real black eye in that whole process too. So it was another reason to move away from AIB and get into, you know, an SQF certification and things like that.

Anthony Codispoti: Just because the requirements are more stringent? Yeah.

Philip Tulkoff: Yeah. Okay. More stringent, they look at when they come in and audit you, you know, they do walk the plant, look at things and physical things, but they also look at all the paperwork, right? You know, do you have a process that addresses this or addresses that? Show me the paperwork, show me what was filled out.

You know, show me that you have tested these systems. Like we have to do a business continuity test every year internally, where we get together as a group and we come up with a scenario and say, okay, there was a giant snowstorm and the back corner of the building roof collapsed. What do we do? How do we recover?

Or there’s a hurricane and the power is going to be out for four days. What do we do? How do we recover from it?

Or a flood or whatever? You come up with the different scenarios, you have to test things like that. So there’s lots more to it than just having somebody come in and walk around once a year the way that AIB audits work.

Anthony Codispoti: Much more thorough. So, Phil, for somebody like you who’s very forward thinking, very comfortable with technology, to have to wait three years to start upgrading a lot of your packaging and manufacturing equipment, had we been driving you nuts, would I be correct in assuming that you used that time to upgrade like the in-office infrastructure, the computers, internet, that kind of a thing?

Philip Tulkoff: Yeah, so we started looking for an ERP system almost right away, and then sort of kicked the tires and had the demos and talked to people and stuff. So that got started before we moved. And we did bring in PCs and got internet connections and email and things like that.

But there was so much work to be done in getting some more of the right people on the bus, getting them in the right seats. There was no work chart when I walked in the door. Nobody knew who they reported to or what the lines of communication were. There were no staff meetings. Basically, my predecessor, you came in and asked them for money to do something, and he said yes or no.

It’s usually no. So we tried to put a lot of processes in place. So weekly staff meetings, we had an organizational chart, tried to do more in writing than we did before.

A lot of it was just verbal kind of stuff. The ERP system, what I would look at is the way they managed the inventory and did things was just very inaccurate. At the end of the day, the plant manager had a list of all the recipes that the products that have been run that day, how many cases have been run, and he had a recipe. And he would literally use a calculator and figure out how much of each ingredient was used based on what was run that day and how much was run. So you can imagine how many errors there were and like, okay, how many boxes, caps, labels, okay, that’s pretty easy. But how many pounds of vinegar, how many pounds of horseradish, how many pounds of preservative, and on and on and then add them all together and say, okay, that’s what came out of inventory. So I started a spreadsheet to kind of do that more methodically, and he would go do it by hand. I would do the spreadsheet and I’ll tell him and then come back and look at his and say, hey, Jerry, this doesn’t look right.

Go double check. And of course, every time mine was right, his was wrong, because mine was now based on a formula I had punched in and was solid. And he’s doing it by hand with a calculator and a pencil.

And then, you know, we literally grew this giant spreadsheet that did that until we could get an ERP system in place. Wow. Yeah, lots of just lots of stuff like that. There’s so much done.

Anthony Codispoti: And there was so much language that she go ahead. Go ahead. I was just gonna say there was so much low hanging fruit that there was just lots and lots of little things like that to change. For instance, we do a lot of garlic is a big part of our process. We buy dehydrated garlic, we rehydrate it with water, and then we pack it. We get the garlic and 50 pound bags. And what they were doing is they were cutting the 50 pound bags, putting them in a 50 gallon drum, you’ve seen those big tall, like an oil drum kind of thing. They would put a forklift clamp around the drum.

You have to get a forklift, put it on attach it, pick it up with the forklift and then rotate it to pour it into the vessel, where you’re going to rehydrate it. And I think it took four of those for each batch or something like that. So it was like a 20 or 30 minute process by the time you went through all that. I’m like, well, there’s got to be a better way to do that. And I quickly found this big plastic tote that had a sluice gate on the bottom that you would just pull open and we would fill that with 1000 pounds, hold it over, pull the gate.

And in 30 seconds, you fill it. So, you know, just time after time finding millions of things like that. And the problem was when I started, whenever I asked, why do you do it? That’s why why is it being done? The answer was always, this is the way we always do. Which I banned as a phrase, you weren’t allowed to say that.

Anthony Codispoti: You had to come up with a better reason. So did you find in the early days, Phil, that it was you who was pretty much the only one coming up with this needs to be changed, this needs to be changed, this needs to be changed?

Philip Tulkoff: Yeah, I hate to say it was. I mean, it really was because they had been sort of beaten into stagnation of don’t bring anything up because we’re not going to pay for it.

We’re not going to do it. I think a lot of people just gave up on stuff like that. And, you know, if it’s not broken, don’t fix it was kind of the kind of the attitude, right?

Anthony Codispoti: Was it hard to find the funding to make some of these changes and upgrades?

Philip Tulkoff: No, we had money. I mean, the company luckily was profitable. I mean, it wasn’t wildly profitable, but it was profitable enough to reinvest into the company. And we did that a lot.

I mean, those first several years, as you can imagine, between building and building and buying all new equipment and moving, we spent tens of millions of dollars to do that.

Anthony Codispoti: Some of the phraseology that you use leads me to believe that you’re a fan of EOS. Were you guys using that as part of your? We’re not.

Philip Tulkoff: Okay. Was that even around back then? How long was EOS?

Anthony Codispoti: Really 2000s. That’s about when I first heard of it. I feel like I could have the timing a little bit wrong.

Philip Tulkoff: Yeah, no, I never did do EOS. And matter of fact, it’s really only come up in my circle, like people I run into and talk to, I would say in the last few years. You know, even though it’s been around, I think it’s kind of had a resurgence. I’m seeing more people talk about it and more people implement it.

But no, we didn’t do that. I mean, for me, it was management by walking around, getting to know everybody, looking for better ways to do things, and fixing a lot of the people. We had a lot of people that were very dedicated, showed up every day, but maybe the company had outgrown them, outgrown their skill set. Nobody ever got sent to training. Nobody did training. So we started doing training classes. We brought in classes about food safety and food security, sanitation classes, good manufacturing practices, all those things, lean manufacturing, 5S. So we started doing more training. And it was great to see people jump on, you know, when you give them those opportunities and challenge them, most of them rise to the occasion.

Anthony Codispoti: Would I be correct in assuming that some combination of your MBA and your time at NASA that really kind of gave you a foundation for some of these structures, some of these approaches to people and training?

Philip Tulkoff: Yeah, I mean, the MBA was definitely more the people part of it, and then also having my own company for a while, even though it was much, much smaller. I mean, we had like 12 employees compared to 100, I guess, back then, at Tocos or something like that. But yeah, I mean, engineering is very structured. I think the best thing about an engineering degree is it teaches you how to approach a problem, how to come up with potential solutions, and then how to solve it. And I think that kind of thinking is what I used throughout my career here.

Anthony Codispoti: So Phil, obviously, there’s at no point the way guys like us are wired, at no point is there ever a stage where you’re like, oh, okay, we’ve done everything we want to do, like we’ve crossed all the upgrades off the list. But at what point did you feel like, hey, we finally come out of the dark ages, and we’re going to continue to make changes and upgrades along the way. But like this is where the company should have been several years ago. Right.

Philip Tulkoff: I would say a few years, like maybe three years after moving into this building that we’re in now, having a bright brand new building that had better flow, it was much better laid out in terms of the flow of the process, having almost all new equipment, and then getting all the kinks worked out and getting everything rolling. I’d say that’s about when, and also we had the ERP system implemented and in use. I would say that’s when I felt like, hey, we’re modern times, I feel proud to bring people in and show them and give them a tour. And that was actually part of our sales philosophy, was get prospects in here and show them around. And I loved hearing over and over again, can’t believe how clean this place is. I love the flow, how automated it is. We had automated palletizing 10 years ago, and we continue to add robots. So things like that for a company or size, I think, are unique.

Anthony Codispoti: It leads great into the next question I wanted to ask, which is, okay, you’ve got a lot of these operational efficiencies and upgrades that you’ve introduced, you guys are fine tuning the dials. But then, yeah, what happens on the sales side? Like, how do you really feed that part of it?

Philip Tulkoff: Yeah, great question. So when I started, we were probably 95% food service, which means that we’re selling larger sizes like gallons and quarts to people like Cisco and US Foods and PFG and Gordon’s, all those trucks you see on the road that are delivering to restaurants, hotels and caters, right?

But the problem is that they are had become very powerful in the food chain. And when they asked you to jump, you had to say, how high, right? So we felt like there was just too many eggs in that one basket and we needed to diversify. So early on, we tried a couple things. So one was, hey, maybe we should really get into retail, we have the equipment to make retail products, and we have some retail products, let’s do that. So we sort of put one toe in there. And then the other one was we looked at copac or co-manufacturing and said, let’s make other people’s products for them, right? Maybe that’s a good way to go because then I don’t have to worry about sales or marketing because I make it they take it and they sell it.

It’s their problem after it leaves my dot. The retail side didn’t go well, right? We didn’t make a lot of inroads, didn’t work well.

And copac early on, we sort of took on anybody we could, made a lot of mistakes, bumped our heads, figured out who we should and shouldn’t be working with, what works. And little by little, you know, it went from zero percent of my business about 13 or 14 years ago. Now it’s 50% of my business and it’s the growing portion of my business. So that was really the sales side was let’s grow that side.

And that’s what’s taken off. And you know, we’re really lucky to say that pretty much every one of my copac clients now is a brand name that you would know. And they’re all, I think every single one of them except for one who was one of my first copac clients, he’s still with me. They’re all multi billion dollar companies. Oh, wow. We don’t work with anybody little like if you can’t do 50,000 cases or more in a year, we just can’t talk to you. The volume we need to put out and the quantities that we can do in a day kind of warrant that kind of volume.

Anthony Codispoti: Are any of these private label like grocery store brands, like in-house brands? No.

Philip Tulkoff: They’re like big name retail brands that you do. Yeah, we do a little bit of private label for like horseradish or cocktail sauce, but I’m talking about like we make a marinade for somebody that we do 700,000 cases a year of. We do a garlic spread for somebody else. We do all kinds of flavored mayo’s and some mustard’s and a deli dressing for somebody else. All kinds of things that like people say, I didn’t know tolkoz could do that or did do that.

Anthony Codispoti: Yeah, say more about the product capabilities that you guys have.

Philip Tulkoff: Yeah, so we’re FDA, not USDA, which means I can’t do any proteins, right? So I can’t do like a meat soup or a stew, things like that. But if you can flow it through a pipe, we can probably do it. Our forte is flexibility. We’re not a high speed co-packer. I’m not doing two, 300 bottles a minute.

But what I can do is glass, plastic, round, square, six ounces up to a gallon, hot fill, cold fill, CT lid, lug lid, one, two or three labels on a container. It’s about flexibility. It’s the ability to do lots of things under one roof so that somebody that has a myriad of either pack sizes or products doesn’t have to go to find two or three co-packers to get it done. The other thing is that with a second facility, we have another facility in Cincinnati, we have redundancy.

So somebody that’s worried about a single point of failure, we do their products in both locations so that we can load balance or move it from one to the other if we have to.

Anthony Codispoti: And so we’re talking about ingredient, like powder ingredients, liquid ingredients? No powder. No powder. Okay, this is all liquid.

Philip Tulkoff: It has to be, I don’t even want to call it liquid. You have to flow it through a pipe. So it could be like a slurry. It could be like horseradish is kind of a thick viscous product. We do ginger puree, garlic, pesto, all kinds of aiolis, marinades. We’ve done steak sauce. We’ve done barbecue sauce. We’ve done chutneys. We do garlic spread. We’ve done cooking. We’ve packed cooking wines for somebody. We did coconut oil for somebody else. That’s the other flexibility we have is from very, very thin products like an oil to very, very thick like horseradish or garlic, which are really difficult to pump and very thick and hard to move around a building.

Anthony Codispoti: Do you get involved at all in the actual R &D? Like, hey, we want to come up with something new. Is it possible? Like, can you develop it with us?

Philip Tulkoff: We do. So I mean, most of our R &D is used to get something from sort of the lab to the plant, right? The scale up and things like that, getting the right ingredients and getting the customer to be happy with the lab version and then we scale it up for the plant. But we do have, like, I have one client, it’s a multi-billion dollar client, still family owned, and the owner will go out to dinner like something he has, get a little ramekin of it, send it to us and say, can you match this?

So it goes from that extreme to the big CPG companies that walk in with the set of papers that says, here’s what I want you to make. Here’s the formula. Here’s who you’re going to buy the ingredients from. Here’s the packaging. Here’s the codes that go and everything. Go do it for them. So we have both ends in the spectrum.

Anthony Codispoti: Okay. So sometimes a client comes to you and they’ve got it all figured out. And sometimes, like, you’ve got your own lab on site there where it’s like, hey, here’s a sample of something that I want to recreate and you guys set your mad scientist to work on it. How can we replicate that texture, that viscosity, the flavor?

Philip Tulkoff: All those things, yeah. I mean, they literally start with a technical side of it, which is, okay, let’s measure the pH. Let’s measure the viscosity. All those things that are quantifiable, if we have an ingredient statement, you can also sort of work backwards from that. And if we don’t, then it’s based on taste and those other things and they can back into it.

Anthony Codispoti: How would you describe the open capacity that you have now? Like are you like, hey, we’ve got our customer base. We’re just trying to take care of them. Or like, is there room to add another production line?

Philip Tulkoff: Yeah. Baltimore is pretty full. We do have another shift on the food service side that we could do a bunch of things with. Kopeck is pretty busy. It’s double shift five days a week. But my Cincinnati plan has a lot of capacity. Right now we have two production lines.

They’re only running one shift. We have physical space for another production line. And then we have enough land out there to actually double the size of the building if we wanted to double the size of the building. We have nine acres out there. So we could go from 63,000 to 130,000 or 140,000 square feet if we needed to out there. So we have capacity. Right now the push is to get more business. Right? We’ve got the process, the people. We’ve got equipment. We just need to get it busier out there in Ohio.

Anthony Codispoti: And so what would be some of the target products that would be a great fit? Same thing as for the Baltimore facility, anything that’s in a slurry, anything that flows through a pipe.

Philip Tulkoff: Yeah. We’ve actually tried to standardize equipment. So if you go visit Baltimore and then you go visit Ohio, you’re going to look at the production lines and go, oh, same filler, same labeler, same cappers. So we’ve tried to be able to mirror that for a couple of reasons. One is then you have institutional knowledge about how to use the equipment, how to fix the equipment. You can share spare parts from both locations from one to the other. You have one OEM to deal with when you have a problem with equipment. So that was one of the things that I did early on is to make sure that we kind of kept the things the same on each side. But yeah, also the redundancy because I don’t want to be able to say, well, yeah, I can do it in Baltimore, but that machine’s down. I can’t do it in Ohio because I have a different kind of machine. It doesn’t do that. It’s pretty standardized.

Anthony Codispoti: Is Cincinnati kind of a strategic decision like location wise because it’s good distribution point to big parts of the population?

Philip Tulkoff: Yeah. So that’s a funny story. When I started, we had a facility in Northern California. It had been open for about five years, I think, when I started, maybe. It had never made money.

It lost money every single year. About a year in, I asked my brother who lived in Southern California to go up and take a look and see what he thought. He was interested. It was his to run.

And if not, that was going to find somebody else. Luckily, he took it on and within the first year, got it into the black and started making money. The problem was it’s a very small facility. There was no room to grow. We couldn’t even expand the building.

We didn’t have any more room. And as most people know, doing business in California is really difficult. They make it hard to, to, to do business. To run a business, honestly. They don’t, they don’t want people out there making money.

I don’t know what it is. So the long term goal was to eventually find a bigger facility somewhere else and, and shut California down. So when COVID came around, it became an opportunity to say maybe nails at the time, because they did a lot of food service. And when we got rid of the food service, because of what happened with restaurants, we’re going to lose money kind of right away out there.

And we said, okay, listen, the employees are going to get the best benefits because of everything the government’s giving people. Let’s take this time to shut it down. So we did. And it just sheer coincidence. Somebody had called me about buying a business that was going under in Cincinnati. So I flew out to see it.

This was early 2020, probably in the January timeframe. I looked at the business and didn’t like it, but it was in a building and they were doing jams and jellies and condiments and sauces and stuff. But I didn’t like the equipment. I didn’t like their, their client base.

I didn’t like the volumes that they were doing on all these different, they had a zillion skews and no volume on any of them. But it turns out that the original owner of the company that had sold to a private equity firm, he was still working there and he grabbed me and said, Hey, I still own the building. My tenant has essentially picked up and walked out on me.

And I’m trying to retire. Are you interested in the building? So I ended up buying the building.

So don’t follow my timing when it comes to real estate, because I bought the building in February of 2020. And then the world fell apart six weeks later. Yeah. Right. Um, but we got a great building, right? The building was already being used for that kind of equipment, uh, for that kind of product line.

Anthony Codispoti: And you didn’t overpay buying a business that you didn’t actually want the customer base for.

Philip Tulkoff: As a matter of fact, I mean, when they told me what the building cost and that it had enough acreage to double the size, I mean, I thought like I was stealing it compared to what things cost in Baltimore.

You know, it was crazy. Um, so yeah, I mean, we, we, you know, cut the deal pretty quickly and closed California and moved and started producing, I would say January or early January of 2021, we were producing in that building. So, you know, we redid a bunch of the infrastructure. We put in, uh, let’s see, new boiler, new air compressors, new piping, fixed. The office is all up.

I mean, we kind of spruce the building up a lot and it’s been, it’s been good. You know, before I pulled the trigger, I went to two of my biggest co-pack customers and said, Hey, if we wanted to do some of your product in Ohio, would you be okay with that? Both of them were like, absolutely. And one of them said, which is my biggest client, they said, that would be great. Our biggest warehouse is two hours away from there.

So they were thrilled. Um, part of the problem with California was we had some capacity out there, even though it was small, but nobody wanted to co-pack out there because they didn’t want to send stuff all the way across the country. Um, so it just didn’t make sense to be there anymore. Yeah. I had a little happy dance when we sold that building.

Anthony Codispoti: So what’s the, what do you think is going to be the thing that fills up the business there in Cincinnati? Like, are you guys just trying to like get new additional business from your current customers? Are you knocking on new doors? How do you do that? Is it just a phone call or?

Philip Tulkoff: Yep. Um, it’s going to be new doors. I mean, we, we have, you know, we do get more business from existing customers, but to really ramp up quickly, you know, you want to find new ones. So, you know, part of it is getting a sales force out there, knocking on doors. Part of it is going to trade shows like a PLMA, private label, manufacturer, manufacturer, association, which is basically all co-packers for all kinds of different industries.

Um, and then I think the location is good. You know, you’ve got some companies that are having everything they started in California, let’s say, or the West coast, and they’re having everything co-packed there and they’re gaining traction on the East coast. But now they got to ship stuff all the way across the country. So they’re looking for somebody further East. So that gives us opportunities. Um, some people have outgrown their current co-packers and they’re looking for more capacity.

Every once in a while, somebody’s not happy with their co-packer and they want to switch. Um, so there’s, there’s a lot of business out there. We, we’ve also added, um, portion control packets. So we currently do like half gallon bags that are good for the back of a restaurant. We’ll have a sauce in it. They’ll take that half gallon bag and fill a couple of squeeze bottles and use it to apply to the burgers all day long or something.

Uh, but we’re also going to start to do portion control, like the small catch of packets and all the way up to a four ounce, uh, little sachet that might go into a, um, uh, frozen food kit or maybe into a hello, fresh meal that you get delivered to your house or something like that. So that’s new for us. Um, equipment’s actually still in the crate. It’s not even out yet, but that’ll be another push to say, Hey, we have another packaging format. Um, and then, you know, we’ve gotten diversified and very flexible by adding equipment as we see opportunities that make sense for the customer and make sense for us. And I think that’s going to continue to happen as other people say, Hey, I want dipping cups or I want a sauce that goes into a bag, but it needs to be hot filled and then cooled. Well, I can hot fill a bag, but right now it doesn’t have cooling equipment. So we’ll probably put in cooling equipment to do something like that. So I see those kinds of things happening in terms of giving us other, uh, packaging capabilities.

Anthony Codispoti: Do you wait until you have a client who’s asking for that packaging capability, or do you say, Hey, I think this is probably a good area for us. Let’s go ahead and invest in it.

Philip Tulkoff: Yeah. So I’ve never done the build it and they will come kind of methodology. Um, now once again, uh, I mentioned that we’re now owned by Graham partners. They have pretty deep pockets.

Anthony Codispoti: They’re not actually, let’s take a moment to talk about that because you and I did that off air. Right. Yeah. So, um, your, your big plans coming up are. Yeah.

Philip Tulkoff: So I’m, uh, I’m retiring the end of this month as the CEO. Uh, we sold the company in October to Graham partners who’s out of Philadelphia. Um, they have deep pockets, right? They want to build the company up. They want to invest. So they’re going to get more salespeople, more R and D invest in other, uh, technologies or packaging formats that other people want, uh, to try to grow the business quickly. Um, so I already saw that happen where they invested right away in this packet machine because we do have an existing customer with a lot of volume that’s having that exact same thing done somewhere else. And we want them to move that to us, which they haven’t done because up until now we haven’t been capable of doing that.

Anthony Codispoti: So your philosophy has always been, let’s wait until we’ve got a customer who’s asking for it. The new owners, the PE company, man, they want to go and let’s, let’s buy the tech now and then we’ll find the customers who want to, to want to use it. Yeah.

Philip Tulkoff: Or they’ll have a warm lead on something and get the process started because you know, with, with equipment, it’s lead times are long, right? It can be like six months to get something. Um, that opportunity could come and go because they found somebody else that already has it. So getting started early gives you a, gives you a leg up. Okay.

Anthony Codispoti: So retirement views coming at the end of this month, we’re recording this on February 19th, 2025. So that’s just, you know, a week and a half away. Yep. What, what, what do your days look like then going forward? What, what are you going to spend your time on, Phil?

Philip Tulkoff: So, you know, I’m still going to be, uh, through October of 20 of this year, 25, I’ll still be sort of on staff. So helping with the transition with, uh, you know, answering questions, customer introductions, things like that.

So I’ll be doing some of that in the background. Uh, I also have a therapy dog that, uh, that I take to a couple of hospitals here in Baltimore, uh, probably ramp that up and find some other places to take her, uh, on a more regular basis. And then I’m also on the board of directors of valor service dogs, which is a 501 C three at a Tampa that provides PTSD and mobility service dogs to combat wounded vets and first responders. And I’ve been kind of their, their business guy and helped with fundraising. Uh, I’ll be able to do more of that with, uh, with more time available. And then also more, more hands on with them to help in terms of, you know, flying places to do events for them, or we have to do different, uh, check-ins with our recipients for the first couple of years and see their, they’re doing okay and things like that. Dogs doing okay.

Anthony Codispoti: How did you get into the service dog, uh, space? Yeah. This isn’t really a business for you. This is more philanthropic.

Philip Tulkoff: Yeah. This is philanthropic. Um, so in 2012, I had a 24 year old cousin that was killed in Afghanistan. He was a Air Force EOD. Uh, him and his two teammates were killed by a roadside bomb. Um, he was a Maryland guy also. So went to the funeral here in Maryland and then he was buried at Arlington. Uh, first time I’d ever been to Arlington for a burial and it was a relative.

So kind of really hit home at that point. Um, I felt like when I left there that I needed to do something to give back to that community. So I found a service dog organization in Maryland that did similar things to what Valor does and started volunteering with them. Uh, through that volunteering, I met the woman and her husband who started Valor. Uh, her husband was a combat wounded that who got his dog through this organization in Maryland.

When he was healthy and was able to get back out of the hospital and stuff, they moved to Florida. She started Valor. Uh, and that’s how I got involved and been in it ever since. Um, as a matter of fact, uh, earlier this month, I was down in Tampa for a graduation. Um, there was a dog that was named after my cousin’s EOD team. The team was called Tripwire.

Uh, dog’s name is Trip, uh, Black Lab. And he was given to an Orlando police officer, a great guy, probably in his mid to late thirties. Um, this is a couple of years ago, he had to shoot and kill a suspect that had a gun trained on his partner. And then one month later, he had to respond to the pulse nightclub shooting in Orlando and, um, he commandeered a pickup truck in the parking lot, drove 30 some wounded patrons to the hospital and saved all of them. And, uh, after that, he was just done.

Uh, PTSD just could not be a police officer anymore. And, uh, couldn’t find a nicer, more deserving guy. So, you know, that’s what I love about watching that, that pairing and that partnership and knowing that you’re, you’re helping them to reconnect with family and have a fuller life. And, uh, it’s been great. I, I came for the dogs, uh, and I stay for the people.

Anthony Codispoti: And so the dog is there to help people, uh, feel more comfortable, more relaxed, more, more assured. Is that right?

Philip Tulkoff: Yeah. So, so we do PTSD and we also do mobility. So mobility is easy, right? You have somebody that has balance issues or can’t bend over. So the dog will bring them things or pick stuff up off the ground. You know, we teach dogs to, to hit those, uh, um, handicapped plates on the wall that open store, the dog can jump up and handle it. Um, you know, one of the dogs we gave, actually the guy just got his second dog.

If, if your dog can no longer work, like it has to get retired, you go first on the list. So I was at this guy’s first graduation. He just had another one. This was another Air Force EOD guy. He was like a 24 year vet and, uh, got blown up and lost both legs and an arm.

Um, but an amazing guy. I mean, you know, great attitude still, you know, live in large and, and, uh, just amazing to watch. You know, I can’t complain about anything reading about and seeing what these folks have gone through because there’s, there, there’s nothing that I’ve had to endure that compares to what, what these people go through. So it’s amazing PTSD. They answer your first question. Um, a lot of times, see my dogs down there sleeping, but, uh, you’ll see PTSD behaviors where people put their head in their hands and kind of rock or rock their legs or ring, you know, ring their hands.

And they’re sort of getting into this, this funk, this depression, this, this zone that’s not good for them. And we teach the dogs to interrupt that. So they will see those cues and come with their nose and bop you. They’ll bop you in the face. They’ll bop you in the hands.

They’ll bop you in the leg until you stop. And it kind of snaps you out of them. And then a lot of it is it just gives people the comfort to go out and go to a grocery store or go to a mall or something because I have this dog by my side. And they feel more comfortable. Like it’s, it’s that companion. It’s that safety net that’s, that’s there if they have a problem. So, um, both sides. Yeah.

Anthony Codispoti: And Philly, you made the comment that, uh, man, I, I watched what some of these guys are going through and I don’t have, you know, these kinds of problems. Having said that, we’ve all been through our own stuff. Personal challenges, professional challenges. Sure. Maybe we can share one of your own, what that was like going through it, how you got through it and what you learned coming out of it. Yeah.

Philip Tulkoff: So I mean, I guess there’s both sides, right? There’s the personal ones. There’s the professional ones, you know, professional in my 20 years, you know, when I started, we had a very underfunded pension plan. Um, had to fight through that. It took me 11 years to get out of that quagmire. Uh, 2008 financial crisis, uh, had to deal with that.

Uh, we’re now going through the, uh, avian flu, the egg problem again with shortages and, and, uh, high cost. That, that’s not the first time it’s happened. So I’ve been through that again. And then of course COVID work, which everybody kind of had to, to deal with and fight through. So, um, you know, those were a lot of the different challenges that you, and even the move, like moving from our old building to this new building was, it was a real challenge.

It did not go the way it was planned. Uh, a lot of sleepless nights and like ridiculously long days and stuff like that. So a lot of challenges there. Um, on the personal side, uh, my dad, uh, was diagnosed with, with lung cancer about six months before we moved into this building. And, um, you know, he really wanted to see this built. My dad, you know, loved, he was the inside guy. He was the guy that did the operations and all that kind of stuff. And he’s the one that got us moved from the original site into the site where the brewery is and he did all that work and stuff.

So he was really excited about this. And unfortunately he died, uh, right before we did the groundbreaking. And, uh, that was really hard. And, and he fought like crazy. You know, he went through all the treatments and stuff.

And unfortunately it was one of those situations where he got worse every day instead of getting better. There was no remission. There was no good day. And, you know, unfortunately it was, you know, learning the business, building a new building and then watching my dad die a day at a time. And that was, that was pretty tough. And I think the hardest thing about that is, um, not bringing it to work. Right. Not taking it out on your employees or your customers or your vendors. And it’s hard, right?

I mean, you got to keep a, uh, you know, a solid base and do your job every day and things like that. Uh, and then more recently in July, my, uh, my daughter was, uh, expecting our first grandchild, her first child. And, uh, she lost the baby one week before the delivery date. Uh, same kind of thing.

Just, you know, a gut punch to everybody. And as a parent, um, you want to be able to fix anything that is a problem or your kids hurting and I can’t do anything about it. And it’s, it’s been really tough. Been tough on her been tough on us. So I would say those are the two biggest personal challenges in the, the 20 years.

Anthony Codispoti: Who, when you’re going through something like that, who or what do you lean on for help and support?

Philip Tulkoff: Um, so I mean, I’m pretty tight about stuff. I’m not real open about a lot of those kinds of things. I would say from a, this is going to sound weird, but from a mental health standpoint, I go to the gym. So I’ve been a gym guy for lots of years, not that I’m like super fitness guy or anything like that, but it’s the way for me to work out anxiety, to get up my frustrations.

Uh, my joke used to be I go to the gym so I won’t kill any in place. Uh, there’s some truth to that. Uh, so I would say that’s part of it. Uh, I’ve also been part of a CEO group and it wasn’t the same group. It’s been sort of a morph of it over the years, but, um, almost since I started, I joined the CEO group that a buddy of mine was in that, that invited me and that’s been a great sounding board. You know, you got a group of people that you respect, that you’re surrounded by that don’t have a dog in the fight that will give you unbiased feedback called bullshit when you, when you, when you’re telling them bullshit and hold you accountable, right? Hey, last month you said you were going to do this.

Did you do it? Yeah. Um, that, that’s been very helpful over the years too. And look, I started that 20 years ago. I guess I was 44 at the time. Now I’m the old guy in the group. Um, but, but I love being able to help out and give, give advice and stuff like that. And, um, and I still use them, right? I’ll still pick people’s brains about what’s going on and you know, what do you think and, and you know, what ideas do you have?

So I would say that’s another area. I mean, not so much me, but it was amazing. Um, watching some people like completely break down in meetings when they were talking about personal items or challenges they were having or stuff, stuff like that. Right? Um, sometimes someone would talk about an issue they’re having and I would like, that’s exactly why I come because now, now mine is nothing compared to that. You know, one guy talked about, you know, a relative in his business got, got arrested for attacking an HR manager during a retreat.

And I’m like, you know, I don’t have to deal with anything like that. One guy had to fire a sister, you know, in the family business. Um, one guy found a trusted employee that he was traveling with, uh, dead in his hotel room, you know, just some like really horrible things that had happened. And you just say, okay, my problems today don’t really compare to that. And I’m going to help him out, not too worried too much about the aggravation I have with an employee that’s driving me crazy or something like that.

Anthony Codispoti: Yeah. Yeah. But finding those, those support groups of, you know, if your peers, uh, is, is so helpful and important. How did you find that group or, or how might people listening who were like, man, I could use that any suggestions for them on how to find something like that?

Philip Tulkoff: Yeah. So the one I initially got involved with was, um, you know, a friend who’s also in the food business in Maryland. Um, my family and his family have known each other for years. We kind of grew up in the same area. Uh, Tocqueau started on the same street that his family started on, you know, at the grandparents generation and he was in this group and invited me in.

And that’s how I got started. They had an independent facilitator and what was nice is most of them were family businesses. There were several that were food and several that were, you know, other areas. And everybody kind of clicked and we did great for a while. And, you know, EBS and flows, people come and go. Uh, and then the facilitator retired and we ended up, uh, moving into another, uh, group that’s more of a, uh, not a national group, but they’re, they’re professionally run and there’s groups around the country and stuff like that. Uh, and that’s where we are now and ended up bringing some people from that prior group and we brought in some new people.

So we’ve got some young blood in there, but I would highly recommend it. I mean, you really need a sounding board for a group of people that don’t have a dog in the fight. There’s no political BS going in the background. They’re not family members. Um, it’s really helpful. Uh, and they can help.

Anthony Codispoti: What’s the name of the organization that

Philip Tulkoff: mature part of the one that I’m in right now is called LX council, LX council. Okay. But, um, yeah. And finding the right group doesn’t always happen on the first shot, right? You really got to mesh with the people in the group.

I think you need to find a group that has similar like size and stuff. They don’t have to be the same maturity, but you don’t want somebody that has two employees and somebody that has 200 employees. It’s different problems. Right. So, uh, I think that’s, that’s part of it too.

Anthony Codispoti: So I’ve just got one more question for you, but before I ask it, I want to do two things for everyone listening today. I’m quite sure that you have loved this interview because Phil has been a great guest today. Go ahead and hit the subscriber follow button on your favorite podcast app so you can get more great content like this. Phil, I also want to let people know either the best way to get in touch with you, or maybe you don’t want that because you’re retiring or the best way to, to reach out to tolkoff or, you know, to continue to follow either the company’s story or your story.

Philip Tulkoff: So, um, you know, when the company were tolkoff.com, T U L K O F F.com. You know, me personally, I’ll still have my email address. I think throughout 2025. So P tolkoff at tolkoff.com.

Not too hard. Uh, and then you can find me on LinkedIn. Uh, just look me up on LinkedIn. I’m out there.

If somebody wants to reach out, be happy to have a conversation. Uh, you know, and I love the manufacturing environment. I don’t care what you’re making, whether it’s, uh, you know, food or spaceships or motorcycles or whatever. I’m, you know, up for a tour, up to talk about it, you know, up for, uh, conversations about stuff like that. It’s, it’s a lot of fun. I love, uh, I love making stuff.

Anthony Codispoti: That’s great. Yeah. Excuse me. Last question for you, Phil. As you look to the future, what exciting changes do you see coming to the food packaging industry?

Philip Tulkoff: Oh, good question. Um, you know, I would say that the pendulum is swinging back the other way. I wanted to say that, you know, for a while, I think up until the new administration took over, you were going to see a lot of things about, you know, non GMOs and, uh, reducing packaging and, you know, the environmental impacts and all that kind of stuff. And I hate to say it, but I think that the current administration is not going to worry about that stuff.

And I think we’re going to see the pendulum, unfortunately swing back towards. Don’t worry about things like that, right? Don’t worry about what the ingredients are.

And stuff like that. We’ll, we’ll see what happens. I mean, with Kennedy coming in, you know, he claims he wants to push, you know, healthier environment and healthier foods, which would be great.

Um, but I’m not so sure that that’s what’s going to happen. Um, you know, one of the things we did, boy, I think it was like nine or 10 years ago is we engineered high fruit, those corn syrup out of all of our products to stay kind of ahead of the game. We saw the handwriting on the wall with retail and we said, let’s do it in food service too. Uh, so we got out of that. Um, but I think there’s a lot of unknown right now. I mean, think like take the avian flu, for example, just two days ago, I saw that there was a pharmaceutical company that got approval for a vaccine for that, for the chickens. But the question is, yeah, the question is, will the current administration allow that to be used?

There’s two things, right? One is the FDA saying, okay, it’s a safe thing, but you know, Kennedy, we know is not vaccine friendly. He may come and say, we’re not going to let you use it. It’d be interesting.

It’s going to be very interesting to see what happens. But avian flu is not going away. Um, now that it’s back, it’s worse than ever. And it’s going to cost you in the grocery store. And for somebody like me that buys a lot of eggs for all the emotions that we make, the price is going way up. And the question is, are we going to be able to get eggs or enough eggs to meet demand? I don’t think so, unfortunately. Mm.

Anthony Codispoti: Yeah. Well, it’s going to be interesting to follow for sure. Uh, Phil, I want to be the first one to thank you for sharing your time and your story with us today. Thank you so much.

Philip Tulkoff: Yeah, it was my pleasure, Anthony, really enjoyed talking to you and anything you can do in the future. Give me a holler.

Anthony Codispoti: All right, folks, that’s a wrap on another episode of the inspired stories podcast. Thanks for learning with us today.